By: Steve Dines
It’s over. The relationship between the Lord Jesus Christ and the group of people who are called “the church” is finished. And if my life is as prophetic as I have come to believe it to be then look out, because fire and death will come upon us suddenly.
Church by church, assembly by assembly, the Lord has been visiting those who say they belong to Him, and church by church, assembly by assembly, each has fallen short of His evaluation. We have failed to hear His voice, we have turned a deaf ear.
Some people try to tell me that there are some good churches out there, but I don’t believe it. To my mind, to my whole being, there is no such thing as a “good” church.
It is with our beloved churches that we, like Old Testament Israel, have defiled the land; we have brought to ruin our promised life in Christ.
That’s because our love for that “sacred cow” we call local church has replaced our love for the Lord Jesus Christ.
We have come to believe that being in church is the same as being in Christ, that listening to church leaders is the same as listening to Christ, but they are complete opposites.
The difference is something that is of vital importance to us, it is a matter of life or death.
I saw a news item on a popular “church” news TV program last night, a church out West in Canada had burned to the ground and was completely destroyed. The Pastor and the congregation were wondering what it was God was trying to tell them. Perhaps the message is plain enough, “the second death is by fire”.
I know I keep on banging on about it, but I can’t keep quiet. This is my message:
Wherever you see hierarchy, formal use of power and authority, routine or mechanistic ways of getting things done and a predominance of one-way communication, then this is not the Lord Jesus Christ at work but men.
It is the work of men that has defiled our Holy Land, our Canaan, our promised life in Christ. It is our human thinking and our human ways that have set Christ aside and caused us to turn a deaf ear to the voice of the Lord. For years He has been calling us to repentance, now the time has come where He is giving us over to what we want. And what we are going to get will eventually destroy us.
We are going to get a radiant, beautiful church that has power. You want a transformed church? You’ll have it. You want an influential church? You’ll have it. You want a church that will unite all “believers”? You’ll have it, and then some. But you won’t have Christ. Because it’s over. The Lord is not going to suffer our insults any longer.
Since coming to Canada, I have come to learn there are two areas of my life you can’t touch, my intelligence and my integrity.
Insult my intelligence or question my integrity and you will see a side of me that you won’t think is very Christ-like. Perhaps the Lord built me this way so that I have a better understanding of how He feels about our churches. Not that I am excusing my sin or my sinful nature, I am having to face up to the fact that I need the life of Christ more than anyone.
But we have to face up to the fact that with our churches we insult the Lord’s intelligence and question His integrity. How? By organising and planning, by directing and controlling, by “leading” the people who are called by His Name. The Lord is quite capable of doing that without our help.
Is not putting ourselves in the place of Christ the work of anti-Christ?
Stay in church long enough and you will get the turnaround you have been asking, seeking and knocking for. But be warned, destruction will follow and you won’t see it coming. That’s because the Lord is testing your ability to hear Him now.
Look through scripture and tell me when there was an occasion where the Lord did something without announcing it well in advance first? Tell me when the Lord allowed people to continually turn a deaf ear to His warnings of destruction without eventually hardening their hearts such that they could not escape His judgement?
Church has brought us to the point of delusion. The time to leave church is now before it is too late.
Since writing “Too dark to work” I’ve been deeply troubled………….
Finish reading article here @FaithWriters.com
Steve Dines articles here.
Called Out: Now What? 
somepcguy
November 19, 2012
You condemn the church, yet you fail to actually say what it is doing that is wrong. In what specific way is the church acting against God? Your post seems to be saying that the problem is that the church has leaders, yet the Church of the New Testament had church leaders. I cannot decide if you are a crackpot or a genuine prophet because you do not give me a specific condemnation of the church to measure against the scripture and the word of the Spirit.
Loretta
November 20, 2012
hello pc guy, I am not the author of this article, but many people have been telling for a long time now, what is wrong in the System. We all have to follow Christ, and He has led many of us out of the System, so we can follow Him, without being hindered by bondage, lies, and traditions. He has called us out. We all must listen to Him. He reveals, so we can see. If you are interested in what others are seeing, i recommend “Come out of her My people” and “The Harlot Church System”, links are in the sidebar, on the right.
somepcguy
November 20, 2012
Having read the intro to “Come Out of Her My People” (The link to “The Harlot Church” does not work), I can only conclude that Steve takes the ideas from “Come Out of Her My People” too far. In his intro the author of COOHMY explicitly says that his critique does not apply to all churches, while Steve in “It’s Over” appears to say that it does. I would agree that many supposedly Christian churches are idolatrous. However, I am a firm believer that the Spirit of God can move wherever He chooses and I will echo Paul when he says, ” Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice.”
alienambassador
January 14, 2013
By just quoting Scriptures, this would be a really long reply. Perhaps you should read this book: http://www.truthforfree.com/files/PDF/Davis-Clark-Pearson_TheGreatEcclesiasticalConspiracy.pdf It’s posted free by the authors who use Scripture to point out wrong that has been done in the church system today, but tWhat has been will be again, “what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” Ecclesiastes 1:9, even if it is new to you and me.
Jack Swager
February 4, 2014
Please allow me to respond for the author. The “church” is essentially a vehicle conceived by the early Roman church when Constantine legalized Christianity. At that time the “assemblies and congregations” became political objects that eventually became the “institutional church” The word “church” is an invention of catholic leaders and king James protestant leaders for easier control of the “laity” by the “clergy” These three words; laity, clergy and church are not in the original Greek. It’s harder to establish central control when people are part of the called out “assembly” and “priests” and “holy people” as the word of God declares.
Now its true that at various times God has greatly used the Institutional church, both catholic and non-catholic, but in agreement with the writer all institutions fail to serve God’s people but end up serving themselves mostly. The biggest purpose for “churches” if they were to truly do God’s work would be as Eph 4 says; to build up the Body Christ for the work of ministry, to bring us into unity and the fullness of the measure of Christ. Instead leadership honors the rich and powerful instead of spiritual and ignore truth for popularity. As the prophet said earlier, God is done with the system just like the shepherds who do not care for the flock, God is putting an end to them and will raise up others who will feed care and protect His flock by the leading of the Holy Spirit.
The good news is that the Lord is close at hand. You can edify yourself by availing yourself to the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to show you God’s great love and gift of life that the Lord Jesus provided for us out of love and obedience. Since God has had His enough with the Institutional church we can flourish spiritually as we follow Him.
Natasa
November 20, 2012
And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
So, Christ Church, Christ body is not over, is not bad thing. Yes, false teachers are all around… yes, carnal people play game called churchianity … but they are not the Church, they are not part of the Body…. they can call themselves church, they can proclaim whatever they want but He knows who are his… His Church, His Bride is not deceived, is not in sin because His life flows thru them…
Loretta
November 20, 2012
amen Natasa, i believe the author is referring to the Institutional Church System. The ekklesia (church/ people who are Christ’s) are alive and well all over the world, following Jesus Christ and His life is lived in/through them and they, abiding in Him.
alienambassador
January 14, 2013
“His Church, His Bride is not deceived, is not in sin because His life flows thru them…” This is true, but those who are His cannot continue to follow falsehood. Jesus said, “Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 5:14. Leaving the church system may mean some light persecution in America, but “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” 2 Timothy 3:12.
Paul
November 20, 2013
The rock is the faith in God granted to Peter by God. Peter is not the rock and the Romish Church is not Christianity. Organized religion today in America is a bunch of 501c3 beast system daughters of the whore. They may think they do the Lord’s bidding but by participating in the beast system and adhering to it contradicts what Jesus taught. There is no capital C church in scripture. The church is where two or more are gathered in Christ. It is that simple. God’s church is all of His people spread among all kindreds and nations throughout time; a temple made without hands.
Loretta
November 21, 2012
hi pc guy, Thanks for writing again…. Steve is not saying he is getting his ideas from those 2 books. I just suggested them to you as resources for this topic. Amen the Spirit goes wherever He will………. everywhere….. That said, this is a blog for those who have already come out of the System, to encourage them, it is not a debate blog. Thanks and God bless you! Here is a video Steve Dines did which addresses some of the “why’s” that he sees.
Loretta
November 21, 2012
I updated the link for Newbold’s book, The Harlot Church System, in the sidebar links.
Steve Dines
November 21, 2012
To push the point home …. wherever you see hierarchy, formal use of power and authority, routine or mechanistic ways of getting things done and a predominance of one-way communication, this is not the Lord at work but men. I studied (as a mture student) workplace tarining and development at Cardiff University (we looked at organisation design, structure, behaviour and so on) then I worked in Local Government evaluating Government funded programs – the net result?
There is no difference betweeen the way the church operates and the way human systems operate; business, government, health, education are all the same as church.
Therefore, the church cannot operate (function) as the Lord’s ekklesia. The only way that church can function as ekklesia is for there to be no hierarchy, no formal (human) use of power and authority, no routine or mechanistic ways of getting things done and a predominance of continous dialogue (amongst all the saints).
This means that for the church to function as the Lord’s ekklesia, there must be repentance (transformation, which = metamorphosis). Therefore, if the church repented, like in metamorphosis, it would cease to exist.
The church is a system, which always acts to keep itself, itself. This is why the Lord cannot do anything with it (or us when we are in it). If the church repented it would cease to exist.
The Lord got me out of the system (that’s a whole other piece of work) then showed me why; so that we who are out of the church can function as part of His ekklesia, free of hindrances from the local church (system).
On a personal note, I did not want any of this for my life, I am reasonably intelligent and industrious, so I wanted to make a good living in business or maybe as a training consultant/corporate trainer ….. but I have been taken on a different path.
By the Lord or by Satan or by my own flesh? ….. You are free to choose.
Loretta
November 23, 2012
Right on Steve, thanks for that explanation / analysis of why the IC cannot function as the Lord’s ekklesia. We’d love to hear your “How the Lord got me out of the System” story sometime.
Tammy Prechrgrl
November 22, 2012
Awesome book Loretta, it is one I keep going back to.
Loretta
November 23, 2012
Amen Tammy, it is such a helpful and edifying book; helps us see “what is wrong” and why.
Lisa Brown
December 30, 2012
We too have left the traditional church and have home church..Since we just started this journey its just my husband, my two boys and me. Its really quite a blessing. I’ve seem to be blessed more than ever. I have come to the conclusion with the reaserch I’ve done, that God really has called us out of the tradiditions of man. I’ve learned to be totally dependant upon the Holy Spirit and His leading..No one else..I’ve seen blessings, I’ve seen visions, I’ve had every one of my needs met. I could’nt say this in the traditional church where i was being told to tithe and was broke for the week, thinking I would recieve a 100 fold return. I strongly believe that we will never visit or go to a traditional church again..Thank you for this blog. I will be writing more.
Loretta
January 1, 2013
hi Lisa, i can really relate to most of what you wrote….. i agree, i am quite detached now and i have no desire to go back. In about 2 weeks i’ll be entering my Fourth year out of the System and i thank God for all the blessings He has given me thus far in this journey in the wilderness with Him. Thanks for writing, look forward to hearing more from you.
Veronica Wallace
September 30, 2013
Ditto,,,, my husband and I are shattered ,in the last month Yeshua has revealed to us the error of all church establishment, our culture,foundation and golden calf have been touched ,we first were thinking we were in error questioning and rebelling against Gods anointed.By accident,by Holy Spirit,He has lead us to truth and the truth is setting us free.We now see how religion began in Babylon with Nimrod and his wife,then mother church harlot ,and all the prostitutes.501c3 government control has put the last nail in the coffin and confirmation is daily revealed to us from resources Our beautiful gracious Savior places in front of our faces.We were so blind ,now we call out show us your face not your hand,no longer requiring the mediator Moses to speak on behalf of Holy Spirit.He shall build his Temple in the hearts of man ,not temples built with stone.Come Maranatha Come. Love you all,thank you for further confirmation with the sites and comments,see you all in glory some day soon.Veronica and Laurie. Xx
Steve Dines
January 1, 2013
The Lord willing, before the end of this decade, there will be a fully functioning ekklesia in every major city across North America: a wife for the Son, sons for the Father, a house for the Spirit to live in ……
and a city whose architetct and builder is God.
Cindy
January 8, 2013
Thank you Steve, what a wonderful thing to look for.
Nkechi Tina Owosekun
February 21, 2013
I have been called out since April 1989 and suffered (still suffering but now strong and confident) intense persecution from fellow christians. My obedience paid off! It has been one on one with God thru the Holy Spirit, having to experience the revelation of the mysteries of God…….My sheep hear my voice, I know them, they follow me, Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard neither has the mind conceived that which the Lord has prepared for them that love Him (Obedience=Love), Enter into God’s rest, Seal of the Convenant, The Bride, Reward, Crown, Garden of Eden a state, a position, manifestation of the sons of God, the man-child, His Protection, His assured Presence, Obedience, Faith, Trust in Him. God takes over your life completely, labels you an Overcomer. In the Garden of Eden there was no church, pastor etc. only ONE ON ONE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD! So much more….
Loretta
February 22, 2013
amen ! Thank you Nkechi Tina Owosekun.
jillsaint59
September 16, 2013
For an excellent explanation referring to what “church” actually means from it’s pagan origin, and Scripture references giving the true description of the “ekklesia” go to ‘Wicked Shepherds.com’ and read “The Church, Distorted and Deformed.”
jillsaint59
September 16, 2013
The Holy Spirit is quite capable of bring fellowship into your life “after church.” I think most believers that leave the “church” desperately need a long wilderness experience. I don’t highly recommend starting a “house church” which once again could fall into an authoritarian structure. I know the above may sound strange to many, but spending our time alone with God and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach and lead is vital to our Spiritual health. Dying to self and even dying to a need for “fellowship” (which is excruciatingly painful) is what puts us on the narrow road to life(and interestingly, is why there are few that find it) “Fellowship” does not always bring revelation, knowledge or growth. Allowing the Holy Spirit to refine and thus define you is the way of the Cross. There is no other way to Jesus Christ. (imho)
arevcindy
September 16, 2013
I could not agree more jillsaint59, that was my experience. The lord made sure it was me and him for quite a while until I had truly learned to look to him for everything I needed. Then, when I understood that he is all I need, he released me to fellowship with others. Even now I want him to lead in when and how much fellowship I have. He can and does bring fellowship with others if its his will for us.
Paul
November 20, 2013
True Christians look for fellow believers for fellowship, mutual edification and to worship. The rest are participating in religiosity. They shop for a church like a trip to the mall. They do no go to seek out God’s Word and Truth but to have their ears tickled, indulge in social societies and find a pastor or preacher who agrees with what they believe. They are feelings-based creatures.
People fall into three categories – those who seek out the Truth, those unable to hear the Truth, and those who hear the Truth but want no part of it. The latter two are not followers of Christ. Those who know Him are in a relationship with HIM not a pastor, preacher, or some other mediator outside of Christ. Not to say one cannot fellowship or be blessed in the Gospel preached but to sit in a congregation in a passive capacity is the milk of the Word.
When feasting on the meat of God’s Word it is the fellowship with Christ and the movings of the Holy Spirit that lead a man’s walk. I will never find solace in a pastor in the singular sense for I have yet to meet the man who is flawless in his understanding of God’s Word. We all are learning unto our dying breath. For me it is God leading me unto understanding never a man’s preaching based on his understanding of things.
Mac Nelson
October 22, 2014
Jesus as He truly is can be found in the gospels, but He is to be carefully distinguished from the Jesus of Paul. The churchmen, while preserving Jesus of Nazareth in the gospels, have not noticed the distinction because, seeing Jesus through the eyes of Paul, the shadow of Paul’s Jesus lies over the gospels and darkens their hearts and minds when they read. Nevertheless, through the centuries, there have been a few individuals who have known Jesus as he truly is, and their existence provides an unbroken chain of witnesses. During the process of braking free from religion I came to realize that Saul/Paul’s confused writings are just more religious leaven, best to be abandoned, and that his words are not the words of God. For Saul/Paul is the essence of religion, and therefore the enemy of Christ. All who look to Paul as an authority still have one foot in the church, and therefore still in bondage.
jackswager2014
October 23, 2014
I agree in spirit that the relationship ‘is over”, but am disturbed by your lack of appreciation of Paul’s understanding of the Word. Paul does not support the institutional church but rather his teachings expose its errors.
Mac Nelson
October 25, 2014
Thank you Loretta, for your kind words. Yes, ruminating and pondering are all part of it because it is not an simple decision; it is a process. Preachers are indoctrinated from seminary and they pass this indoctrination on to those who listen to them. The mind slowly becomes encased as in cement, (religion) and we must chip away at the cement to free our minds to think again. This takes time, study, and work; and courage. Jesus said, “Let us reason together.” We must be free to use our minds completely.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.”11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Again, the devil took a young preacher to a very high place (the top of a mega-church), and showed him a large parking lot full of cars, with people streaming into the church, looking at the pastor with admiration and adulation. Inside Satan showed him collection plates overflowing with money. The young preacher said, “Show me more, Satan!” Only a block away he saw a spacious, fully furnished tax free parsonage, with soft carpeting, a large screen TV, two new cars in the garage, and travel brochures for expense paid vacations. “All this will I give you,” he said, ” if you will bow down and preach what I tell you.”
Many pastors know that Paul’s teaching is in direct opposition to the doctrines of Jesus, yet they proclaim him as ‘the greatest apostle ever’, because if they preached otherwise, they would be out of a job,…. and out of that parsonage. God bless, <
jackswager2014
October 30, 2014
I would like to know what gospel scriptures and Paul’s teachings are supposed to be opposing each other? Just because the Institutional Church twists Paul’s teachings they are still scripture. Shun totally the false teaching of men but don’t stunt your own spiritual growth by shunning what has been revealed to us through the Spirit using Paul. I don’t let the church system be a tar pit to me and I won’t let them steal the true revelation of Jesus that is revealed by Paul’s revelation given by the Holy Spirit.
Mac Nelson
October 28, 2014
Luke 17:20-21, And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”
One day I realized that Jesus and religion are two opposing forces, and as it is with all opposing forces, they are in conflict one with the other; and that, “Religion is the darkness against which Jesus struggled, and against which he commanded his disciples to strive.” (Leo Tolstoy, My religion (1884)
Four years ago I stopped going to church, and I stopped listening to the voices emanating from the church; I stopped listening to preachers, gospel radio and television, and I stopped reading material written by anyone in the church religious system. The only material I read was written by Christians who had already broken free of religion.
When I first abandoned the religious system, organized, maintained, and promoted by the church, I had a feeling of guilt as though I had turned my back on Jesus, but in hindsight I now realize that forsaking religion actually enabled me to draw closer to Him, as many other Christians have also found to be true. As long as I was attending church, and listening to the many voices of the church religious system, the shadow of Paul’s Jesus [religion] was cast over my heart and mind, which darkened my understanding as to who Jesus truly is, and what His Gospel is truly about; because I have learned over the past four years that the religious system of the church presents a very distorted image of Jesus and His Gospel. New covenant theology/dispensationalism marginalizes the words of Jesus and exalts Paul. But when you get alone in the wilderness, live in the Gospels, marginalize Paul and exalt Jesus, it’s not long until Paul just drops off the page. God Bless, <
Mac Nelson
October 29, 2014
Paul does not support the institutional church Jackswager? He’s the one that started this whole business of religion. He’s the one that planted churches and he’s the one who said, “How will they hear without a preacher?” Well, maybe they should hear from you and me and everyone else who knows and loves Jesus; over our backyard fence, grocery store, etc. good places to start. I have come to realize that abandoning the religious system of the church was the only way to break free from the indoctrination that blinded me from knowing Jesus as He truly is, and knowing the truth of His Gospel, but abandoning religion does not mean abandoning Christ, or abandoning the church, the body of Christ, though it may be percieved as such by some.
When I became freed of religion it was as though a weight had been lifted from me, and the changes in my life have been only positive, very positive, for only after being freed from religion was I able to fully embrace Christ, and I began to understand the Bible as I never had before. Now when I talk with others who are still trapped by religion, I see the bondage they are under, and am saddened when they exalt their church or preacher. I now realize that the religious system that the church employs is counter~productive, and that the cause of Christ would be far better served if there were no churches or preachers, for without them the cause of Christ would be free to flourish. God Bless, 🙂
jackswager2014
November 1, 2014
You are most certainly wrong. I’m starting to feel none of you critics have read Paul’s letters. How are you any different than the religious system that you and I abhor. The religious system only accepts part of the bible and disregards the rest. The revelations that Paul received actually opens up what Jesus did for us and gives us freedom. When Paul told us to obey those that have rule over us he also said ” for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy” Many leaders are serving themselves and not care for the body of Christ. Such people are not ones we should listen to. Stand up to the religious system by speaking the word revealed by the “teacher” that is the Holy Spirit.
Mac Nelson
October 30, 2014
Jesus is Light, Truth. and Freedom. Religion is darkness, deception, and bondage. For many people reject Christ because they think that if they were to accept Him, they must become part of the religious system of the church, and live up to its duties and obligations. So they reject Christ because they don’t want to,…. dress up and go to church every sunday,….go through the rituals of standing, sitting, and then standing again,….give money for this,….give money for that,…endure long winded sermons,…or be in any way a part of religion. And then there is another group of people who support the religious system of the church, and are active therein, and believe that by doing so they have accepted Christ; and that by fulfilling a set of religious duties and obligations they are being faithful and obedient in service to Him; yet in truth do not know Him. Thereby, countless millions have fallen prey to the deception of religion. Therefore, to be part of the religious system of the church, although bearing the name of ‘Christian’, is to be one with the darkness against which Jesus struggled, and against which he commanded his disciples to strive.
Mac Nelson
November 3, 2014
To break free from religion one must first understand that Christendom is indoctrinated (brainwashed) with the false teachings of Saul/Paul and look to him for spiritual enlightenment, and revere him as a great person of faith, when in fact the teachings of this charlatan/wolf in sheeps clothing have caused more strife, discord, division, pain and misery than any other body of work since the begining of time. And just as the Isrealites were in physical bondage to Egypt, so too is the Church, the body of Christ, in spiritual bondage to Saul/Paul’s false teachings which have been poisoning the pure Gospel of Jesus for 2000 years. But there is hope. Many, with eyes to see and ears to hear, are coming to an understanding of this deception and are abandoning the apostate religious system, and are no longer attending church or supporting preachers who ignorantly perpetuate this deception. This is bringing about a quiet reformation, fueled through the internet, by people who have abandoned religion and have been freed from spiritual bondage to, “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.” – Mark 12:30 Yet every week millions still attend their golden calf where they are led astray through indoctrination by a man in the pulpit as he heaps condemnation to himself; all the while completely unaware that they too are heaping condemnation to themselves. For the religious system of the Church is just another part of the Babylonian system that God commands us to forsake when He says, ” Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins; and that ye receive not of her plagues.” – Rev. 18:4 For all who are bound by religion have simply fashioned to themselves another god.
Steve Dines
November 16, 2014
Mac, I have seen others make comments about the teaching of Paul, however I don’t understand how Paul’s teaching has lead to the creation of the church system. I think the church system manipulates (twists) all the scriptures equally, for example, the writers of the King James Bible deliberately chose language to reinforce and support the authority of the Church of England (of which King James was the head).
In my opinion, to disregard Paul’s teaching means losing revelation on huge sections of the Old Testament, revelation that I have found extremely helpful in understanding more about things like the fullness of the Gospel, the work of the Lord and the corruption of the Church system.
jackswager2014
November 19, 2014
I am so glad to see someone who is speaking wisely about Paul’s teachings.
jackswager2014
November 17, 2014
Where did you get your erroneous ideas about the apostle Paul? Paul wasn’t around when the body of Christ, (the assembly) became enslaved to the church system. You make strong statements which you don’t back up.
Mac Nelson
November 20, 2014
When we become comfortably indoctrinated by churchanity, the truth offends. It offended me too, and for that I am now very thankful. For it made me question and examine long held beliefs that I was taught, and had accepted as truth. If anyone needs a reason to abandon the religious system of the church, here it is: Let Jesus teach you from Matthew 7. Mt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. These Christian prophets that Christ is not allowing to enter into his kingdom are not “unsaved” people. Unsaved people do not call Christ their Lord. No, they are Christian preachers who have called upon the name of the Lord for salvation. In the four Gospels, Christ gives many warnings against the scribes and Pharisees. These warnings are for preachers as well as all Christians, so we will not be deceived. So, why will Christ reject these Christian prophets? Because their message deceived many. Their deceitful message came from the Pharisee Saul/Paul. All of the doctrines that the Pharisee Paul teaches in his thirteen books of the New Testament are the doctrines of a Pharisee. Paul is a Pharisee! Christian preachers who ignore this fact become false Christian prophets! The rejected Christian false prophets in Matthew 7:23 do not teach Christians to observe the things that Jesus commands in the four Gospels; they teach Christians to observe whatsoever the Pharisee Paul commands. They do this in total disregard of every warning given by Christ! These false Christian prophets might have received a little grace from Christ if the things they taught were just a little bit different from what Christ taught. However, the doctrines of the Pharisee Paul are exactly the opposite of what Christ taught – 180 degrees backward. You can’t get any farther from the truth than what the Pharisee Paul teaches. And every preacher, (and that is all of them), who quotes Pharisee Paul as an authority, is a false prophet! It is very shameful for Christian preachers to be fooled in this manner. Many Christians today as well as many in the past have doubted Paul’s credibility. They have come to realize many aspects of Paul are anti-Jesus. This has led them to either become weary of Paul or just out right reject him. Many Christians now realize a person can be a follower of Jesus without being a believer of Paul. Upon rejecting Paul, my allegiance to Jesus became focused and undivided, and I was set free to be fully devoted to Him, my first love; and to love Him, the Lord my God, with all my heart, soul, strength and mind. Let me conclude with the words of the author of the Declaration of Independence and the 3rd President of the United States. “Paul was the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.”— Thomas Jefferson
jackswager2014
November 29, 2014
Your comments about Paul are gross error. Paul denounces the very practices you accuse him of inventing. All of the new testament writers agree with each other including Paul. You do a lot of accusing but don’t reference scripture as to what Paul wrote that you think is wrong. You should try reading the Bible before condemning the God inspired writers.
Mac Nelson
November 23, 2014
Thank you Jack and Steve for your comments. At least I know someone is reading mine. So where do I get my erroneous ideas? and to disregard Paul is to lose revelation? well, maybe you could give me some revelation on the following verses that have always made me wonder.
Jesus is almost always pictured with long hair. In 1 Cor. 11:14, Paul says, nature itself shows us that long hair on a man is shameful. I have looked to nature and have wondered how it shows us that long hair on a man is shameful? A long mane on a horse or lion? Long fur on a dog or cat?
In 1 Cor. 5:11 Paul says not to company with sinners, but Jesus ate with them, and reached out to them. I think we should reach out to them and show them the love of Jesus, as much as God gives us the ability.
Eph. 6:5 and Titus 2:9-10, Paul exhorts slaves to obey their masters and to be well-pleasing to them in everything. When the southerners in our country sought to defend slavery, they pointed out these verses to back them up. It seems to me that this was a failure on Paul’s part to rise to the occasion and therefore gave cover to criminal slave traders for the next 2000 years.
In Acts 16:3 Paul circumcises Timothy, but in Gal. 5:2 he says, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing, and that you become a debtor to the whole law, and that you have fallen from grace. Did Paul hate Timothy?
In 1 Cor. 14:35, Paul says, women are to keep silent in the church, and if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church,…I find this verse demeaning to women. I have wondered how much this verse has suppressed equality for women through the centuries. In Thes. 2:11-12 Paul says,…God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth… I don’t believe Jesus would send anyone strong delusion that they should believe a lie, that they might be damned. Rather He spoke of leaving the 99 sheep that were safe, to rescue the one that had turned away; and the prodigal son was not cut off by his father.
In 1 Timothy 1:19 Paul says, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20- of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. How would anyone deliver someone to satan? Rather than praying to free them from their supposed error (or better yet leaving them as tares in the field as Jesus commanded), he talks of delivering souls to satan, whereas Jesus always talked of delivering souls from satan.
In 1 Cor. 5:5 Paul speaks of publicly dismissing a man from church fellowship and delivering him to satan for the “destruction of the flesh.” Did he kill him? In 1 Cor. 4:21 Paul says, …shall I come to you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness? A rod? Sounds kind of mean spirited to me, even if he just meant it figuratively. In Titus 1:10-11 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers…..Whose mouths must be stopped,… Mouths must be stopped?? Just how does he propose to do that? Beat them? …. kill them? In 1 Tim. 2:15 Paul says that women shall be saved through childbearing. So all mothers are saved?
Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge. Why does Paul say in 1 Cor. 8:1 that knowledge puffeth up. Is he talking about a different kind of knowledge? ;
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all. But just two chapters prior to this statement, he says in Rom. 9:18: So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. So, it makes me wonder, which is it?….mercy upon all,….or mercy on some? In 2 Cor. 11:31 Paul says: The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,…knoweth that I lie not. ….In Gal. 1:20 again he states: Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not….. 1 Tim. 2:7 I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle,(and lie not) ….and Rom. 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not,… I’ve wondered,…. were people continually calling Paul a liar so that he had to defend himself over and over? Jesus said let your yea be yea, and your nay be nay. For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Was he not aware of this? Yet when I read Romans 3:7, it seems to me that Paul thinks that lying is just fine if it leads to God getting some glory from it:
Romans 3:7 – For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also judged as a sinner? …Could this mean that since Paul says we are not under the law but under grace that if a pastor lies to his congregation it’s ok as long as his church keeps growing? (to be continued) God Bless,
jackswager2014
November 30, 2014
Well Mac, thank you for responding. I will answer the first question at this time and address the others in sequence but it will take time for the sake of accuracy. Jesus was a Nazarite and when such a one made a vow he did not cut his hair until the vow was fulfilled. This may be why artists depict Jesus with long hair but there is probably no historical evidence that he did have long hair. As you quoted Paul, he was referring to what was accepted at the time, that it was shameful for a man to have long hair and a woman to have her head shaved. During the middle ages and later it was accepted for men to have long hair just as it is more accepted now than in the 1960s. In the end we have to stand before the judgement seat of Christ not Paul, so we would be wise to be assured in our hearts that what we allow or don’t allow is taught by the Holy Spirit was Paul wrote it or what ever anyone is writing or preaching.
Steve Dines
December 2, 2014
Mac, the question I asked myself about your claim about Paul being a false apostle/teacher was, “where else in scripture is Paul mentioned?”.
In the Book of Acts, the writer refers to Paul’s conversion and ministry that leave me in no doubt Paul’s conversion and message were true. Then, in 2 Peter 3 we read:
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Things should be confirmed out of the mouth’s of 2 or 3 witnesses. It seems to me that both Luke and Peter validate Paul’s life in Christ and his message.
Mac Nelson
December 1, 2014
More about Paul’s “hard to understand” verses.
In Matt. 23, Jesus warns us over and over to beware of the Pharisees and their hypocracy, and that our rightiousness must exceed theirs. Yet in Acts 23:6 Paul declares, “I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.” By stating that he is the son of a Pharisee, he seems to be adding emphasis to the fact. This is long after his conversion. Was he unaware of Jesus’ denouncement of the Pharisees, and actually thought that being a Pharisee was an asset? Why didn’t he say he was a Pharisee, or renounce it.
Romans 13, Paul says we should submit to government authority, [Nero, Stalin, Hitler,?]….. so what should we do when government agents come to give us the mark of the beast?
Revelation 21:14, And the wall of the city (the New Jeruselam) had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Shouldn’t there be 13 foundations? Why doesn’t Heaven recognize Paul as an apostle?
1 Cor. 4:16, Paul says, Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. Mt. 16:24, Jesus says, … If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. I choose to follow Jesus, and Him only.
Excerpt from Jesus, The Son Of Man, by Kahlil Gibran (as being in Jerusalem, 1st century, a diciple of the risen Christ)
This day I heard Saul of Tarsus preaching the Christ unto the Jews of this city. He calls himself Paul now, the apostle to the Gentiles. I knew him in my youth, and in those days he persecuted the friends of the Nazarene. Well do I remember his satisfaction when his fellows stoned the radiant youth called Stephen. This Paul is indeed a strange man. His soul is not the soul of a free man. At times he seems like an animal in the forest, hunted and wounded, seeking a cave wherein he would hide his pain from the world. He speaks not of Jesus, nor does he repeat His words. He preaches the Messiah whom the prophets of old had foretold. His speach is halting, and his words are ill chosen. But he is a man of hidden powers and his presence is affirmed by those who gather around him. And at times he assures them of what he himself is not assured.
We who knew Jesus and heard His discourses of how man could break free from the chains of his bondage; to be free from his yesterdays, realize that Paul’s teaching is forging chains for the man of tomorrow and that he would strike with his own hammer upon the anvil in the name of the One whom he does not know. Jesus would have us live the hour in passion and ecstasy. Jesus gave His breath to the breathless dead. My heart grieves at what I hear, for this is not the teachings of my Master. When we sat at meat with Jesus, He told stories that gave happiness to the feasters, and spiced with His joy the bread and the wine. But Paul would prescribe our loaf and our cup. Suffer me now to turn my eyes the other way.
jackswager2014
December 4, 2014
2 Peter 3 1 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. This scripture applies to you Mac. Your vendetta against the Institutional Church system would be far better served in accurately understanding scripture and following it instead assaulting our brother Paul with ignorant claims and conclusions that do not edify the body of Christ. You assail the written word as though God had no power or influence in what has been written. 1 Cor 12;3 So I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus,and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. … Paul declares Jesus as Lord! The fight you fight is against the truth, God’s word and the revelation of His son Jesus Christ.
Loretta
December 5, 2014
Brothers, thank you all for seeking to help people understand, and for your contributions, as this mini online debate shall need to come to an end on this page. If you desire to continue debate/ discussion in private, please ask and I shall provide you each others’ emails. Thank you, with love, Loretta
smooothlegs
November 6, 2015
Reblogged this on Seeking JESUS and commented:
wow
smooothlegs
November 6, 2015
yes JESUS called me out out out of the institution of Church in 1984. The Formula- they ascribe to ??? DIDN’T WORK for me ! thank you for this truth JESUS bless you !